Kenji's K5000 Message Board Digest - Overview K5000 Resources - Overview
The Eat at Joe's Kawai K5000 Message Board Digest
Making Patches Phat


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some help
 Tuesday, 01-Dec-98 00:36:13 

      199.227.192.20 writes:

      It's been my first day of tweaking with my K5k,
      and I've been unsuccesful to even create a new
      patch using PCM (I dont even think about ADDs yet)
      I need your help people. What's the first step(s)
      to make a patch sound (I got no sound whatsoever).
      Another concern ... It seems to me that K5k is
      kind of thin ... Is it anyway to phat it up a
      little ? Got V4.0 up and running ! 

      franco 

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some ideas - any ideas on how to ADD the fat?
 Thursday, 03-Dec-98 17:25:45 

      192.86.155.104 writes:

      The easiest way to start making patches is to take a sound that already exists
      and edit it from there. If you start with something basic like my ADDSaw patch or
      Leiter's L7 patch, you shouldn't wind up with problems like not being able to
      hear anything very easily. I think one of the prime candidates for eliminating your
      sound is the Formant Filter. If you want to be sure you can max the whole thing out
      and then make sure it's not offset and has no envelope.

      Here are some ideas to fatten the sound up:

      Detuning: Try making two sources that are identical and then make one of them out
      of tune by around 5-15 cents.

      Octaving: Try making two sources and then transpose one of them up or down a whole
      octave. Decrease the volume on the source you transposed.

      Decay: Give the sound a subtle decay. This will emphasize the attack and make the
      sound hit harder.

      Effects: Many of the effects settings can make the sound bigger, here are the
      obvious ones to get started: Chorus, EQ (crank the low end), Enhancer, Exciter,
      also a subtle Distortion or Overdrive can help.

      Of course I think the best candidate for making the PHATTEST sound around is to
      custom create an ADD harmonic profile that does what you need. We haven't really
      discussed what makes a sound fat yet though in terms of additive
      synthesis - anyone???



      Kenji 


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Can I make my K5Ks sound like a Nord Lead?
 Tuesday, 22-Dec-98 21:40:46 

      207.5.49.12 writes:

      Hi fellow tweakers,

      I know this is kind of a lamer question, but I just wanted to know if it was even
      possible to make my K5Ks make the same "phat" analog type sounds that the Nord
      Lead has. I like the digital sound that it has right off, but I want to start
      programming to see if I can get some 'warmer' sounds. Should I bother?


      Phrenzy 

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Re: Can I make my K5Ks sound like a Nord Lead?
 Friday, 25-Dec-98 14:12:02 

      152.167.80.77 writes:

      well, dial up the patch "raveish" (OS4.0, i believe it's #67 or so in the "a"
      bank), twist the cutoff knob to max and play it in the lower registers with
      varying amounts of velocity. pretty darn phat, methinks. however, it's a PCM patch,
      and as far as i can tell the only PCMs that would be any good for phattish sounds
      are in the range #390-400 or so, so there might be limited mileage to be got as far
      as PCM is concerned. i'm too inexperienced at additive to address that side of
      things, though, but with some clever programming it must be possible. the k5k
      certainly has the bass, it must be a question of getting the filter envelopes
      right, detuning correctly, etc...

      ashok 


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"Fat" Sawtooth
 Saturday, 17-Apr-99 16:00:07 

      207.90.173.253 writes:

      What do you think would be the best way to create a nice sawtooth sound?  We can
      already create a mathematically precise sawtooth, however that might not actually
      be what we really want to hear.

      My question is:
      1. Why is the default sawtooth ADD set for the K5K (using the ADD switch feature)
         not a mathematically precise sawtooth?

      2. Why is the SoundDiver sawtooth not a mathematically precise sawtooth?

      3. Why in the world did they use what look like truncated sine waves for the
         PCM samples?

      4. Do these sawtooths sound BETTER than a mathematically precise sawtooth?

      5. What can we do to create a sawtooth with the best flavor for getting a nice
         fat sound and really good filter/LFO effects?


      Here are some relevant resources from past discussions/research:

      K5000 Waveforms (graphic intensive)
      http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Lounge/6766/k5kwaves.html

      Creating Basic Waveforms
      http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Lounge/6766/digests/sawtooth.txt

      Techniques and Formulae for Creating ADD Patches
      http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Lounge/6766/digests/techniqu.txt

      Has anyone tried sampling unfiltered and unmodulated sawtooth wavforms from
      "vintage" synths? Maybe it would be useful to start building up a library
      collection of basic sawtooth/square ADD profiles to use as a basis for new
      patches....would the differences between the various profiles be worth the
      effort?


      Kenji 

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Re: "Fat" Sawtooth
 Sunday, 18-Apr-99 16:13:03 

      199.199.158.217 writes:

      The pure saw is good for some things, but it''s often too bright. On bass notes,
      the cricketing is pretty loud. It can be good to filter. For saw samples, phase
      differences may account for some of the quirks in the appearance of the
      waveforms, so it isn''t always clear what''s going on with the harmonics.

      A saw has so many audible harmonics that there''s a lot to mess with. I''m sending
      three patches I think some of these count as fat, but let me know! 

      C Saw 20: Dark saw with HH''s 2-7 boosted and 9+ cut, falling to 0. Related to
                a 2% pulse.
      C Saw 10: Medium dark saw with HH''s 2-17 boosted and 20+ cut, falling to 0.
                Related to a 1% pulse.
      W Saw: Wavey HH profile with high fundamental and mid HH''s and cut low and
             high HH''s. 


      leiter 

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Re: "Fat" Sawtooth
 Monday, 19-Apr-99 07:16:13 

      194.172.230.108 writes:

      Do I remember right that some "vintage" synths had exponential sawtooth waves?
      Aren't they said to sound fat?  Anyway, if you want to have an exponential
      sawtooth wave on your K5000, simply program a linear falling slope on the
      harmonic level scale. (Says theory.)

      Should be easiest to be done using the "All", "Dark" and "Bright" edit macros.

      Jens Groh 

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Re: Re: "Fat" Sawtooth
 Monday, 19-Apr-99 10:38:34 

      192.28.2.16 writes:

      >Do I remember right that some "vintage" synths had exponential sawtooth waves?

      Is that where the diagonal is more like an S-curve, with the middle more
      horizontal? (The two "C Saw" patches do that, plus the vertical is tipped a
      little.) 

      leiter 

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Re: Re: Re: "Fat" Sawtooth
 Tuesday, 20-Apr-99 10:20:47 

      194.172.230.108 writes:

      This is what I mean: Go to the Fourier synthesis website
      (http://www.nst.ing.tu-bs.de/schaukasten/fourier/en_idx.html - Java required)
      and enter these values (an approximate exponential function): 

      a0 = +5.0 
      a1 = -4.5    b1 = -4.5 
      a2 = -2.6    b2 = -2.6 
      a3 = -1.5    b3 = -1.5 
      a4 = -0.9    b4 = -0.9 
      a5 = -0.5    b5 = -0.5 
      a6 = -0.3    b6 = -0.3 

      You see an exponential sawtooth wave. 

      But the K5000 has only sine, no cosine components. Watch what happens when you
      reset all "a" values to zero: There you are, leiter - the sawtooth wave that
      you described! 

      Jens Groh 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: "Fat" Sawtooth
 Tuesday, 20-Apr-99 15:51:45 

      192.28.2.16 writes:

      >You see an exponential sawtooth wave. 

      Yep-that's the "vintage" waveform I've seen.

      >But the K5000 has only sine, no cosine components. Watch what happens when you
      >reset all "a" values to zero: There you are, leiter - the sawtooth wave that
      >you described!

      Yep, it's the same! It looks like the general rule is to boost the low middle
      harmonics, i.e. 2-~16, and cut the high harmonics. Boosting the low mids rounds
      the points of the waveform and gives the diagonal an S-curve and cutting the
      highs makes the vertical less vertical. These changes make the pure saw somewhat
      closer to a thin pulse. (I'll have to try that with an analog; add a thin pulse
      to a saw.)

      The waveforms in the L7, L2 and L1 patches are also boosted in the low-mids
      and cut in the highs. Maybe this is a general fat rule. Alternately, you could
      say, cut the fundamental and the high harmonics.  You'd think that cutting the
      fundamental would make a weak waveform but it seems to be the opposite sometimes.
      I have a good accoustic-sounding bass with no fundamental at all!

      Detuning also adds lots of fat, as Leslie pointed out. Detuning makes all of
      the harmonics oscillate in volume at a rate proportional to their frequency.
      Since it's slowest with the fundamental, it's arguably most noticable there.


      leiter 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Fat" Sawtooth
 Thursday, 22-Apr-99 01:49:55 

      209.214.60.81 writes:

      Leiter said:
      "Yep, it's the same! It looks like the general rule is to boost the low middle
      harmonics, i.e. 2-~16, and cut the high harmonics.  Boosting the low mids rounds
      the points of the waveform and gives the diagonal an S-curve and cutting
      the highs makes the vertical less vertical. These changes make the pure saw
      somewhat closer to a thin pulse. (I'll have to try that with an analog;
      add a thin pulse to a saw.)"

      If I remember correctly, the MiniMoog's most famous 'fat' sound was the
      result of a combination of a Triangle wave and a Pulse wave. 

      Terry 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Fat" Sawtooth
 Thursday, 22-Apr-99 23:25:26 

      199.199.158.131 writes:

      > If I remember correctly, the MiniMoog's most famous 'fat' sound was the result
      > of a combination of a Triangle wave and a Pulse wave. 

      Do you know what width pulse? 

      leiter 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Fat" Sawtooth
 Friday, 23-Apr-99 12:54:47 

      209.214.60.82 writes:

      > > If I remember correctly, the MiniMoog's most famous 'fat' sound was the
      > > result of a combination of a Triangle wave and a Pulse wave. 
      >
      > Do you know what width pulse? 

      Sorry, I don't (though the number 16% is floating around in my brain for some
      reason, still, the fact that the MiniMoog used a straight triangle wave makes
      me suspect things were kept as simple with the pulse wave (ie, at 50%). 

      Terry 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Fat" Sawtooth
 Friday, 23-Apr-99 12:08:24 

      192.28.2.16 writes:

      >It looks like the general rule is to boost the low middle harmonics, i.e. 2-~16,
       and cut the high harmonics. Boosting the low mids rounds the points of the
       waveform and gives the diagonal an S-curve and cutting the highs makes the
       vertical less vertical. These changes make the pure saw somewhat closer to a
       thin pulse. (I'll have to try that with an analog; add a thin pulse to a saw.)

      >The waveforms in the L7, L2 and L1 patches are also boosted in the low-mids and
       cut in the highs. Maybe this is a general fat rule.  Alternately, you could say,
       cut the fundamental and the high harmonics. You'd think that cutting the
       fundamental would make a weak waveform but it seems to be the opposite
       sometimes. I have a good accoustic-sounding bass with no fundamental at all!


      Come to think of it, this is related to what happens on a guitar (or bass) when
      you combine a neck pickup out of phase with the bridge pickup. You can get a
      talky, mid-rich lead tone. You couldn't do the same with a filter unless you
      were tracking the pitch somehow. 

      leiter 

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Re: "Fat" Sawtooth
 Monday, 19-Apr-99 18:27:07 

      206.57.21.184 writes:

      I'm not sure if this will answer your question, but I think what makes those
      analog synths sound so fat isn't necessarily the shape of the waveforms but how
      the oscillators interact. If you take two oscillators and assign a saw to both,
      what will happen is that the phase of one oscillator will differ from the other.
      This phase relationship seems to change each time a key is pressed. This causes
      a slight difference in sound even if the same note is played over and over. I
      think this is one of the things that makes analogs sound so fat.

      The trick on a digital synth, like the K5000, is to simulate this type of
      random phase relationships between two waveforms. One way might be to layer two
      sawtooth waveforms, assign a pitch envelope to one of them, and set it so that
      it cause the pitch of the waveform to go from sharp to being in tune very
      quickly. This will cause the two waveforms to have different phase relationships.
      You would then want to route the modulation amount of the envelope to velocity.
      Since a note you play will likely have a different velocity amount from the
      previous one, the notes should sound slightly different. Hopefully, this would
      make a digital synth sound a little more lively.



      Leslie 


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