Kenji's K5000 Message Board Digest - Overview K5000 Resources - Overview
The Eat at Joe's Kawai K5000 Message Board Digest
The Letter Sent to Kawai


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Message sent to Kawai (warning - very long post!)
Tuesday, 31-Mar-98 21:09:37 

     153.35.243.62 writes:

     Here's a copy of the message I just sent to Kawai. Sorry it took me so long to put
     it together. I'm going to call Troy on Thursday to follow up, so if I screwed
     anything up in the message please let me know (and yes, I edited the versions of
     the message digests that I sent to Kawai so they would be easier to read and
     not quite so long - they remain unchanged in my message digests).


     Thanks,

     -Kenji



     ---Troy Reigleman wrote:
     >
     > Hi Kenji,
     > 
     > Yes, I have check your site, and downloaded the sounds very recently,
     > but I haven't had time to listen yet. Any questions you might have can
     > come to me. I will try to answer them, but a lot of times, things like
     > the "actual values" of internal parameters are not documented anywhere,
     > so I would refer those to a Japanese engineer who worked on the project.
     > 
     > 
     > Troy
     > Product Specialist
     > 



     Hi Troy,

     It took me a while to get last minute feedback from everyone on the message
     board so I could try to take care of all of our questions/bug reports at once, and
     also to compile all of this, but following is a list of edited messages that
     people have posted on my message board but could not be resolved. If you could help
     us with any of these issues I would be very grateful. I also maintain a digest of
     all of the posts from my board, which is also kind of like a K5000 FAQ, so if I
     get answers to these questions I can publish them on my page and they will be
     available to everyone in the future.

     I've heard that a new system 4.0 is on the way, so maybe many of these bugs are
     already being worked out (is this true??). Do you know if this is true? If it is
     maybe you could see if some of our "wishlist" items below could get mentioned to
     the engineers. Also, do you have any information about new system
     developments for us (we would love to get the inside scoop)?

     One of the biggest issues we've been having is how the values that you can set
     for the K5000 relate to "real life" values. In particular, how the K5000
     envelope rates reflect real life time values and how many decibels there are
     between amplitude settings. We are not afraid of complex mathematics, and have
     already been trying to convert envelope attack, decay, and release "time" settings
     into real time (since it's really a rate, and not a time at all). Currently we are
     trying to figure out if the synthesizer uses an exponential equation or some kind
     of look-up table. We know that the calculation must be simple since the
     K5000 must calculate thousands of envelopes simultaneously in realtime (right???),
     but the exact algorithm eludes us. There is a thread on my message board
     called "Rate/Time Formula" with the latest info if you want to see what we've
     been trying.

     In particular, we would like to be able to write programs that can produce
     envelopes and/or harmonic sets that are based on time values so that we can apply
     some of the acoustic information we have available to us in books etc... toward
     the patches we create. We think the tremendous potential of this synthesizer is
     severely hindered by a lack of concrete information in the manual.

     Any insight we can get into how the synth functions mathematically would be
     helpful. Here is an example of the kind of stuff, more specifically, that we would
     like to know:

     - Converting envelope rates into real time (value 0 - 127) -> (seconds)
     (do all envelopes use the same formula?)
     - Converting amplitude level into real volume (value 0 - 127) -> (decibels)
     (also including the amplitude for harmonics and the formant filter)
     - Converting cutoff filter to frequency (value 0 - 127) -> (frequency)
     (without taking any key scale into account)
     - Converting LFO speed to period time (value -63 - 63) -> (frequency)
     - Converting LFO vibrato to semi-tones (value -63 - 63) -> (semi-tones)
     - Converting LFO growl to frequency cutoff (value -63 - 63) -> (frequency modifier)
     - Converting LFO tremolo to level (value -63 - 63) -> (decibels)


     I realize that it may be difficult to obtain all of this information, but anything
     you could provide would be welcome. Most important to us for now is the
     algorithm used to convert rates in the envelopes (the source envelopes and the
     harmonic envelopes) into time values. I really appreciate all of your help, and
     I'm sure everyone that reads my message board will be very happy to get answers
     to some of these questions. Sorry this message is so long....


     -Kenji

     P.S. - I'll try giving you a call on Thursday to talk about all of this.



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     Version 3.0 Bug?
     Friday, 28-Nov-97 17:35:33

     Message:
     152.163.207.37 writes:

     I use the K5000S, and after installing the new 3.0 operating system, I've noticed
     that sometimes when playing an arpeggiator, a note will drone (even after
     the arpeggiator is turned off) until I find the note that is stuck and press
     it, or until I switch the patch.

     Is this a bug in 3.0, or is there something wrong with my OS disk or the synth
     itself?

     euporia420@aol.com


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     KS Pitch and "stretch" tuning
     Friday, 30-Jan-98 14:48:54 

     130.67.0.151 writes:

     First of all, does anyone know what is the pivot note for normal Key Scale? Is it
     C4 (middle C, one-line C)? I cannot find this documented in the manual.

     Then, under DCO, page 30, it says that KS Pitch can be used to play in quarter-
     tones, or to add "stretch" to the tuning. Quarter-tones work fine, but I cannot
     see that "stretch" is possible. Is this a bug in the opsys or a bug in the manual?
     Or am I missing something?

     Tore

     tl001@online.no 


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     Re: Rates in the guise of time values
     Monday, 02-Feb-98 11:25:13 

     193.96.226.61 writes:

     There is another similarity of these envelope generators: I observed that both
     the DCA_Key_Scale_To_Envelope_Level and the ADD_DHL_Key_Scale_To_Gain parameter
     seemingly do not function (at least in some cases). 

     Is this a bug? - What do you think? 


     Jens Groh 

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     Re: Re: Rates in the guise of time values
     Monday, 02-Feb-98 12:46:15 

     130.67.64.84 writes:

     Yes, I have also noticed that some of the Key Scale parameters apparently do not
     function or have a function different from what is intended. I am trying to
     test it all systematically.

     Tore

     tl001@online.no 


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     Why can't I save LOCAL setting?
     Tuesday, 03-Feb-98 13:18:41 

     134.141.111.201 writes:

     I'd like to keep the LOCAL setting OFF, but it resets to ON every time I power down.
     Are you guys manually turning it OFF for every sequence session?
     Even the K4 retained the LOCAL setting on power down.

     thanks
     -Brian

     bchampig@ctron.com


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     KS to Gain once again
     Sunday, 15-Feb-98 08:25:32 

     130.67.1.73 writes:

     Experimenting with a piano sound, I just could not understand why the tone was
     so mellow. After careful comparison with other sources I finally found the
     culprit: KS to Gain in the DHL Common screen was set to +45. Reducing it to 0
     or some negative value cleared up the sound and brought back the high
     harmonics.

     Tore

     tl001@online.no 


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     Do you hear these bugs?
     Saturday, 21-Feb-98 12:52:47 

     130.67.64.133 writes:

     Some of you may have downloaded and tried Kenji's Hammond patch. If I play this
     patch, there is a curious variation in the amount or amplitude of the low
     harmonics. Play e.g. the note C5 (i.e. two-line C) over and over again. What
     I hear is not a constant tone, but a random fluctuation between C5 and C6. That
     is, the low harmonics seem to drop out once in a while. 

     This phenomenon appears to occur only if at least two of the three voices in
     Hammond are active. I cannot make it happen with one voice only. Do you hear
     the same thing? This seems like a bug to me. 


     Tore

     tl001@online.no 

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     Re: Re: Do you hear these bugs?
     Monday, 23-Feb-98 13:47:24 

     130.67.66.203 writes:

     I have listened more carefully and it sounds as
     if any of the first few partials drop out at irregular intervals, for no reason at
     all. Very odd. I first noticed it when playing this patch.

     Tore

     tl001@online.no 

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     Re: Do you hear these bugs?
     Wednesday, 04-Mar-98 04:41:14 

     194.172.230.108 writes:

     I reduced the patch ("Hammond2") to the bare essentials: I retained source 1 and
     2 only, switched all effects off, set the effect control depth to zero - and
     could hear that phenomenon even better than before! 

     My explanation: The dynamic voice (or "source") assignment of the synthesis software
     starts the 2 sources with a little delay. This delay is not constant, so the
     phase relations between the sources vary from note to note. In this case, the
     sources 1 and 2 are identical, so some harmonics may easily be cancelled by the
     phase shift, each time different ones. Maybe even the fundamental. 

     Now make an experiment: Detune one of the 2 sources slightly. All kinds of phase
     cancelations will occur, and you will hear very strong timbre changes. 
     Greetings,
     Jens

     Jens Groh 


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     Re: MORF as built-in envelope calculator
     Thursday, 05-Mar-98 10:25:20 

     130.67.2.216 writes:

     But there appear to be some bugs in the MORF function. In particular, the Harmonics
     Levels of the MORFing source are sometimes set correctly, sometimes
     not. This will be corrected in the next version of the OS, I am sure...

     And it's a hassle that you have to save the sources before you execute the MORF.
     I wish the K5000 would read the sources being edited rather than the old
     version in flash memory.


     Tore

     tl001@online.no 


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     Re: Help from Kawai
     Tuesday, 10-Mar-98 08:26:00 

     192.58.185.8 writes:

     Here are some wishes, off the top of my head:

     1. midi sync to LFO

     2. LFO rate/depth Envelope modulation

     4. a little more headroom with the resonance before it starts to self osc.

     5. continuos LFO


     Ryan 

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     Re: Re: Help from Kawai
     Thursday, 12-Mar-98 14:54:50 

     142.214.193.138 writes:


     1) More filter res settings. Not more res, just finer control. 

     3) To be able to switch between banks without the banks resetting. I'd like to switch
     between, say a clavinet in the PCM bank, back to a lead in the
     additive bank withou having to first passing through "gorzimo" or whatever the
     first patch in the additive bank is. Again, I heard that this is taken care of,
     but not on the relatively new model I tried. 


     peter kadar at kadp9233@admin.humberc.on.ca

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     Re: Re: Help from Kawai
     Tuesday, 10-Mar-98 11:55:21 

     192.28.2.19 writes:

     QUOTE
     2. LFO rate/depth Envelope modulation
     UNQUOTE

     It's not a full envelope, but you can fade in the rate and depth of the LFO.



     leiter@skypoint.com 

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     Re: LFO Envelope
     Thursday, 12-Mar-98 20:04:33 

     192.58.185.8 writes:

     Yes but it only goes in one direction!

     I want more control.

     Ryan. 

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     Re: Oh just one more thing!!
     Thursday, 12-Mar-98 20:10:23 

     192.58.185.8 writes:

     How could I have forgotten: PAN/ENV to LFO Modulation!!

     What was I thinking?

     This really should be standard on synth/sample gear. I don't want to swallow up an
     effect just for panning! shees!

     Ryan. 

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     Re: Help from Kawai
     Tuesday, 10-Mar-98 17:29:06 

     130.67.0.167 writes:

     Another item of especial interest is why the KS to Gain parameter acts as a
     general brightness control. SoundDiver seems to use it in this way, so either
     they have secret information about the real function of this parameter, or they
     have just picked up the feature as is and put it to use. Some other KS
     function also seem to be more or less haywire.


     Tore

     tl001@online.no 


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     KS to Gain once again
     Sunday, 15-Feb-98 08:25:32 

     130.67.1.73 writes:

     Experimenting with a piano sound, I just could not understand why the tone was
     so mellow. After careful comparison with other sources I finally found the
     culprit: KS to Gain in the DHL Common screen was set to +45. Reducing it to 0
     or some negative value cleared up the sound and brought back the high
     harmonics.


     Tore

     tl001@online.no 


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     What-I-Found-Out #2: FF Bias / Poly Mode Dependency
     Saturday, 14-Mar-98 06:40:09 

     195.232.50.106 writes:

     The Formant Filter is transposed together with the played note if you play
     'legato' and the POLY mode is set to SOLO2. Even though this pitch tracking
     may be useful in a few cases, it is mostly annoying. You can hear it on my
     "Simoog" patch. 


     Jens Groh 


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     FF dB Scale?
     Thursday, 18-Dec-97 11:52:52

     Message:
     192.28.2.19 writes:

     Anyone know the dB scale of the formant filter? What would a 24dB/octave filter look
     like? How steep is the low pass template in SoundDiver?

     leiter@skypoint.com 

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     Re: FF dB Scale?
     Tuesday, 23-Dec-97 16:35:12 

     195.232.60.79 writes:

     Yes, the FF amplitude scale is what I need so much since I used the formant filter
     for the first time. (Remember my remark in the PWM posting?) 
     Well - now I have an answer. I have done measurements, and they are just finished: 
     It's 0.75 dB per step.

     The amplitude scale in the "Harmonic Level" menu seems to be the same.


     Jens Groh 


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     Re: Rates in the guise of time values
     Monday, 02-Feb-98 11:25:13 

     193.96.226.61 writes:

     Hmm... this throws a different light on the DCA envelopes. Is it the same "rate
     algorithm" as in the ADD/DHL envelopes after all? How can they keep the
     envelope on a constant value then? Can they? - I didn't test it. (See "Rate
     parameters of harmonics envelopes" thread.)

     There is another similarity of these envelope generators: I observed that both
     the DCA_Key_Scale_To_Envelope_Level and the ADD_DHL_Key_Scale_To_Gain parameter
     seemingly do not function (at least in some cases). 

     Is this a bug? - What do you think? 


     Jens Groh 

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     Re: Re: Rates in the guise of time values
     Monday, 02-Feb-98 12:46:15 

     130.67.64.84 writes:

     Yes, I have also noticed that some of the Key Scale parameters apparently do not
     function or have a function different from what is intended. I am trying to
     test it all systematically.

     Meanwhile, have any of you found a way to translate DCA Envelope settings into
     Harmonic Envelope settings? Not to mention a similar translation for the
     DCF Envelope. Figuring out this machine will take some time...

     Tore

     tl001@online.no 


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     Re: Re: Re: Re: Another bug ...
     Wednesday, 04-Feb-98 12:16:54 

     194.172.230.108 writes:

     Yes!
     - and no. Well, I think I found out what happened, and it looks no more like a real
     software bug but still very odd:
     The neutral value (the MIDI documentation says: "default") of the user macro
     controllers (GC#5...8) is zero, not 64. No offset is added to this value before it
     is scaled with the depth value and added to the destination parameter. Furthermore,
     with the maximum scale (depth = +31 or -31) you can reach a range of
     only about 63(!) of 100 units (percent or whatever it is). 
     So, I couldn't turn the effect completely down with the controller if the effect
     DRY/WET value was greater than 0 (for positive depth values) or greater than
     63 (for negative depth values). 
     This is in contrast to the behavior of the "user" knobs in the "common" settings.
     There, you can use them for both positive and negative changes of the assigned
     parameters, and their neutral value is 64! 
     Anyway, thanks for your hints! 

     Jens Groh 


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Just talked to Troy at Kawai and here's the inside scoop
Friday, 03-Apr-98 19:35:59 

     208.250.189.192 writes:

     I talked to Troy just now and gained some info.

     1. There is no system 4.0 in the works right now, so I guess we just have to deal
        with the system as it is now.

     2. The K5000X has not been cancelled. It is still in the works. He says it is
        basically the K5000W and the K5000S combined. It will have 76 keys, all of the
        memory banks of the K5000S and the K5000W, a sequencer and tone generator, the
        arpeggiator, and the macro knobs - all in one machine. I didn't get a
        due date.

     3. Troy is requesting the "real life" values of all of the parameter settings and
        the algorithms used for these processes from the technicians in Japan. He thinks
        that most of it wouldn't be proprietary, so he should be able to get some of
        the info if it exists. The problem might be that it's not documented anywhere -
         although this seems highly unlikely to me...

     4. He is also looking into some of our bug reports I sent to him.


     Well, cross your fingers everybody.


     -Kenji 


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