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The Eat at Joe's Kawai K5000 Message Board Digest
Aftertouch Sensitivity


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[Q] After-touch too sensitive?
 Sunday, 17-Jan-99 02:48:31 

      192.100.81.117 writes:

      Hi, 

      I just got one of the K5000W units being closed out by Musician's Fiend. I am very
      pleased with how it sounds. I've downloaded and installed OS 4.0 and the unit
      appears to be operating fine.

      However, regardless of the OS installed, I've found that the after-touch on the
      keyboard is too senstive to be truly useful. It seems to jump from 0 to 127 as
      soon as the slightest pressure is registered.

      I also own a Kawai K4 and interestingly, its AT response differs drastically. The
      K4 requires very hard pressue to reach the full value of 127. Thus, in between,
      there is a lot of expressive control. For an example of this kind of "forgiving"
      type of AT response (if you have a K4), try the factory patch "Warmth" (program
      "ID-5" in my K4).

      So, I am dissappionted that the K5000 doesn't offer the same type of response.
      It's so sensitive, it's virtually impossible to be at all expressive with AT
      while simultaneously trying to play something! I've tried adjusting some of the
      AT parameters in particular patches to no avail. For an example of this kind of
      "unforgiving" K5000W response, try the factory patch "WheelPad" (in OS 1.0, this
      is program "A035"). In fact, since it's a similar "paddy"-type sound, this a good
      comparison with the K4's "Warmth".

      Anyway, is "hyper-sensitive" AT response a known "feature" with the K5000W? Is
      there a fix or mod? 

      PS: If your K5000W doesn't seem to behave as I've described above, I'd like to
      hear about that as well. Perhaps I got a "bum" unit?

      Thanks,
      Matt 

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Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive?
 Sunday, 17-Jan-99 06:27:26 

      24.130.39.28 writes:

      I have a K5000s, and the same complaint. Love the sounds, the keyboard (velocity)
      action, the knobs! *Hate* the aftertouch. If it weren't for that it would be
      practically perfect (sigh). 

      Woodie Bud 

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Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive?
 Sunday, 17-Jan-99 10:47:49 

      199.199.157.34 writes:

      It does have values between 0 and 127, they're just a little hard to find. 

      leiter 

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Re: Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive?
 Sunday, 17-Jan-99 10:49:15 

      199.199.157.34 writes:

      on the other hand, the velocity response seems to be very nicely spread out. 

      leiter 

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Re: Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive?
 Sunday, 17-Jan-99 22:27:50 

      192.100.81.125 writes:

      >It does have values between 0 and 127, they're just a little hard to find. 

      Well, yes, that was basically the point of my first posting. The K5000W's
      after-touch response is way too sensitive to be useful.

      I realize it's *possible* to get AT values between 0 and 127 out of the K5000W's
      keybaord, but I've found it requires too much concentration. I can't possibly be
      actually *playing* anything while I simultaneously try to get just the right
      amount of pressue to produce an AT value *other* than 0 or 127.

      I've tried various patches and actually changing their AT parameters myself, with
      no real change in the keyboard's sensitivity.  The problem seems to be the
      keyboard itself. 

      Can anything be done about this? Is there a fix or mod? How could Kawai or their
      K5000W's beta-testers have missed such a basic problem?

      Thanks,
      Matt

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Re: Re: Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive?
 Monday, 18-Jan-99 09:57:20 

      209.30.58.187 writes:

      Here Here.
      I agree totally. I love the board and I spent a long time trying all the
      interesting new keyboards. It came down to the K5000. If the aftertouch worked a
      little better if it was a little more cushier it would be the perfect board.
      Anyway I emailed Kawai about the problem and they tried to play it off as a great
      new feature, and that they thought it was the most expressive aftertouch they
      had ever seen. Whatever. PS they should have put syncd lfo's in there someware 

      Aaron 

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Copy of an email I sent to Kawai (awaiting reponse).
 Monday, 18-Jan-99 15:37:04 

      209.21.202.6 writes:

      Subject: [Q] K5000W after-touch too sensitive?

      Hello,

      I just got one of the K5000W units being closed out by Musician's
      Fiend. I am very pleased with how it sounds. I've downloaded and
      installed OS 4.0 (from Kawai Australian's Web site, BTW -- you guys
      should get your site's act together, you know) and the unit appears to
      be operating fine.

      However, regardless of the OS installed, or what patch is selected,
      I've found that the after-touch on the keyboard is too sensitive to be
      truly useful. It seems to jump from 0 to 127 very quickly as soon as
      the slightest pressure is registered.

      I also own a Kawai K4 and interestingly, its AT response differs
      drastically. The K4 requires very hard pressure to reach the full
      value of 127. Thus, in between, there is a lot of expressive control.
      For an example of this kind of "forgiving" AT response (if you have a
      K4 handy), try the factory patch "Warmth" (program "IC-5" on my K4).

      So, I am disappointed that the K5000W doesn't have the type of
      response. It's so sensitive, it's virtually *impossible* to be at all
      expressive with AT while simultaneously trying to play something! I've
      tried adjusting some of the AT parameters in particular patches to no
      avail. For an example of this kind of "unforgiving" response, try the
      factory patch "WheelPad" (in OS 1.0, this is program "A035"). In fact,
      because "WheelPad" is a similar "paddy"-type sound, this a good
      comparison with the K4's "Warmth".

      Anyway, is "hyper-sensitive" AT response a known "feature" with the
      K5000W? Is there a fix or mod? I like the K5000W in most other
      aspects, but its keyboard is virtually useless for AT expression. As I
      had intended to use the K5000W as my main "controller", the lack of
      expressive control over AT is a shame.

      If the K5000W isn't supposed to behave as I've described above, I'd
      like to hear about that. Perhaps I got a "bum" unit?

      PS: For additional comments by myself and others (including some
      regarding a previous reply from Kawai) about this issue, please see the
      thread titled "[Q] After-touch too sensitive?" on the "Kawai K5000
      Message Board"
      (http://www.insidetheweb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi/mb22787) at "Eat at
      Joe's Studio" Web site.

      Thanks,
      Matt Arnold

      Owner: K5000W, K4, K4r

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Got a response from Kawai...
 Thursday, 21-Jan-99 20:51:58 

      209.21.202.6 writes:

      Welp...

      In an email conversation I had with Kawai America's Product Specialist Troy
      Reigleman, he said (and I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him).

      "Regarding the 'extra-sensitivity' of the aftertouch, I did go to the message
      board and read the other complaints. Sorry, but there is not a way to change
      this - I just checked with our service manager to see about a modification."

      Then, just to be sure, I had him clarify that...

      "Correct - no fix for the AT sensing."

      Sorry kids.

      Matt

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Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive?
 Wednesday, 20-Jan-99 20:18:14 

      12.79.51.42 writes:

      Hello,

      I actually very much like the aftertouch of the K5K keyboard. It feels about the
      same as a Clavichord and I have always relied on the degree to which I map
      aftertouch to its destination to limit the AT depth. 

      One of the reasons I like electronic instruments is that they do not have
      mechanisms like the Piano Action or a Tracker Organ Action. 

      All of our modern keyboards started with the Clavichord. That gave rise to
      Harpsichord which in turn gave rise to the Piano. The first Piano was actually
      called "Hammered Harpsichord With Soft And Loud" or "Gravecembalo Con Piano Y
      Forte". The first Pianos were very light to the touch; much less that a K5K or
      its ilk. But as Piano Volume requirements increased due to the increasing size
      of Concert Halls, the Piano Hammer had to be made more massive. To be traveling
      at a good velocity when colliding with the Music Wire, the key travel, or key dip
      as it is called had to be made deeper, the key longer, the parts it moved
      heavier, and the amount of pressure required to move the key much greater.
      Modern Pianos these days and really since about 1875 have been heavy out of
      necessity to handle producing more sound for bigger halls. 

      We do not have to do all of this work! Where most of have problems is that we
      would find it musically useful to have adjustable touch contexts for a given
      voice. I once heard someone say that a big difficulty in Synthesis is that the
      Keyboard is conducive to people approaching voices like they were "Keyboard
      Voices" and I thought his point was interesting. I Think it woudld be great if
      there were the ability to change it for though...

      Kawai is an Old Piano Maker. I am not at all surprised by their response and
      personally agree with them. 

      Pete 

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Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive?
 Thursday, 21-Jan-99 20:48:01 

      209.21.202.6 writes:

      Hi Pete,

      Hmm, are you talking about velocity or after-touch sensitivity? They are two
      very different things! I can't tell because you go on to compare the K5000W with
      other instruments like real pianos and clavichords that by definition don't have
      after-touch (they're not MIDI instruments). Are you sure we're talking about the
      same thing?

      I was complaining about the after-touch, *not* velocity, repsonse the K5000W has
      *after* you've depressed a key (after the MIDI velocity has been registered, what
      I think you're talking about) and than *then* press down harder on it. *That's*
      after-touch (transmitted with MIDI status bytes 0xAn or 0xDn, unlike velocity
      which is transmitted 0x8n and 0x9n) and K5000W offers little control between 0
      (no AT pressure) and 127 (full AT pressure). 

      The K5000W seems to treat *any* moderate level of pressure as "full" AT. Other
      keyboards, even like Kawai's own K4, have a much more controllable response to
      AT, allowing smooth, controllable transitions between 0 and 127 (or anywhere in
      between).

      I actually quite like the K5000W's velocity response. But, the AT response is
      almost useless (unless you like your AT to act like a switch, which perhaps you
      do).

      Matt

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Re: Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive?
 Friday, 22-Jan-99 19:13:13 

      12.79.51.11 writes:

      Hi Matt,

      I was talking about After Touch too. Specifically go to
      "Edit\Control\More\More\Press Modulation: Depth1 or Depth2" and there you can
      also map what After Touch Destinations you want from what is available. I was
      saying I don't map depth much deeper than I expect the After Touch to end up and
      that for some musical contexts it is ok. For example, if you set depth to 6
      and destination to Pitch you can do quick shakes on the keyboard, sort of like the
      Clavichord, which does allow you to bend pitch.

      I do agree with you that at full depth the K5K AT is pretty well useless and it
      would be nice if there were a setting to map AT just like Velocity has a number
      of response curves to choose from.

      Otherwise I think it is a nice Keyboard and the the K5K in general is such a great
      synth. Since you have experience with earlier Kawai Keyboards it must seem like a
      real mistake. 



      Pete 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive?
 Saturday, 23-Jan-99 06:01:23 

      24.130.38.42 writes:

      I agree that having different AT curves would probably be quite useful. Adjusting
      the AT response of all of the individual patches that need it would take forever.
      Besides, I was hoping to use this thing as my master keyboard, and I would have to
      change the AT response on all my different modules, which would then make them
      incompatible with my older sequences and any keyboard that has 'normal' AT. Oh,
      well, I still love the instrument, but really wish that Kawai hadn't dropped the
      ball in this crucial (for me) area. 

      Woodie Bud 

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Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive?
 Friday, 22-Jan-99 19:45:32 

      207.217.146.179 writes:

      You guys are crazy. The AT rules on the K5000(s).
      It's one of my faves. 

      andrew 

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Re: Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive?
 Friday, 22-Jan-99 23:41:51 

      209.21.202.6 writes:

      >You guys are crazy. The AT rules on the K5000(s).
      >It's one of my faves. 

      I not sure what you mean by "rules" -- but I assume you're trying to express your
      approval at the way after-touch can be utilitized in K5000 patches. I agree.

      However, if you read all of the postings in this thread, you'll see that I'm
      not complaining about what kind of effect you can get with AT when programming
      the K5000. Rather, I'm talking about the sensitivity of the K5000's keyboard to
      AT pressure. It offers far too little control over the full AT range of 0-127.
      This is unlike all other keyboards I've ever seen, including Kawai's
      own K4!, which I own. In fact, if I play my K5000W via MIDI with my K4, the
      control I then have over the AT response is like night and day! I can be *much*
      expressive with AT when playing my K5000W via the K4.

      So, IMO, the keyboard's on K5000 units is far too sensitive to AT pressure. On
      mine, I can only seem to get basically 0 (none) or 127 (full) AT responses out
      of it. I assume yours is the same (based on replies from other in this thread).
      You like this? You prefer an AT response to behave like a "switch" instead of
      having a smooth, continusouly controllable range? I suppose if you never really
      experienced "proper" AT response on another keyboard you might not know the
      difference.

      I'm crazy? Well, I think *you're* crazy. ;-)

      Matt

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Re: Re: Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive?
 Tuesday, 26-Jan-99 12:14:58 

      209.214.60.176 writes:

      Well, naturally, we're all crazy. We're musicians.

      I am of the approving school when it comes to the K5K aftertouch sensitivity. I
      play Korg Wavestations and an Ensoniq EPS-16+, and had to work SO HARD to get
      much response from their (excellent forms of) aftertouch. On the K5K, I get
      simply fantastic results after practicing for a while to get used to its
      wonderfully light touch. I've never used the aftertouch as much before on other
      synth controllers, because of the amount of pressure involved (I'm from an
      organist's background so I'm used to heavy activity from the fingers not holding
      down notes. That's harder to do if your holds require a lot of pressure to
      squeeze the expressivity out of them!) I also like the way I can make the
      aftertouch and velocity curves work in conjunction with each other. Other
      aftertouches are designed to have slow initial response so as to not be so
      sensitive to your pounding the keyboard to get louder (higher velocity) output.
      I've always found that to be a pain, since if I WANTED to have the aftertouch
      relate with the velocity, I always had to hit the keys very hard, followed by
      even more pressure (wrecking the useful range of the velocity parameter for
      those patches!)

      Of course, everything is relative to what you're used to or wish to achieve that
      you couldn't before. I usually look for the latter, and the K5000 lets me achieve
      much that I never could before. 

      Terry 


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